After Tuesday's elections, WND editor and CEO Joseph Farah was quite clear — the results are God's judgment on America.
Farah wrote that Obama's re-election represents, at least to him, “God’s judgment on a people who have turned away from Him and His ways and from everything for which our founders sacrificed their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor.”
He went on to say, “things are going to get very tough in America over the next four years.”
“When you turn away from the ways of God Almighty, this is what you should expect, if you are a student of the Bible and history,” he added.
Farah was not alone in that assessment.
The Rev. Franklin Graham said Obama's re-election sends America down a “path of destruction.”
“Unless we’re willing to repent for our sins, we will stand in his judgment,” he said Wednesday after a birthday celebration for his father.
Even worse, he said that God may, “withdraw his hand of protection” from America if the country does not change its ways.
“I want to warn America: God is coming around. He will judge sin, and it won’t be pretty,” he added.
According to an article at The Blaze, other faith leaders agreed.
Billy Hallowell wrote that Fred Luter, the first African American president of the Southern Baptist Convention, said America is “in trouble.”
“As citizens of the United States, it’s now time for us to put away our yard signs and buttons and [pray for] our president,” he told the Baptist Press.
“Our nation is in trouble, and we need Believers to pray God’s will be done in America. We need to understand it’s only going to happen because the people of God start praying for revival in America.”
R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, “said that evangelical Christians 'must see the 2012 election as a catastrophe for crucial moral concerns,'” Hallowell added.
Prior to the election, Southern Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress caused a stir when he warned in a sermon that Obama must be defeated.
“I want you to hear me tonight, I am not saying that President Obama is the Antichrist, I am not saying that at all,” he said. “But what I am saying is this: the course he is choosing to lead our nation is paving the way for the future reign of the Antichrist.”
The idea that God would judge a nation for wickedness is not foreign to anyone who knows anything about the Bible.
There is, of course, the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, the 70 years Israel spent in captivity and the book of Amos is filled with warnings to entire civilizations.
“This is what the LORD says: “For three sins of Ammon, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. Because he ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead in order to extend his borders,” Amos 1:13 says.
But the Bible also gives a promise.
“When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land,” a passage in 2 Chronicles says.
In his op-ed, Farah said the next four years is a “time for collective repentance.”
“Only a miracle can save us — and we need to humble ourselves before God and pray hard for one,” he added.
Ugh…I disagree.
If we are going to take God’s judgments as national devestations, than 9/11 has to be at the top of the list as Divine judgments and that was under Bush. I remember gathering at the Mall in DC for THE CALL, where organizers sought to rally a million youth to gather for 12 hours of prayer before the election between Bush and Gore. Well we got Bush and then 9/11 and the following years of irresposabile spending, bloody wars and eventual economic collapse.
I think these types of event-to-bible associations misunderstand the judgment of sin on and in Christ. In Christ we are saved from judgement. Christ is the center of God’s work not nations. Sin is sin’s own punishment, the fruit of our actions punish us, not God.
Blending political outcomes with theology or eschatology is wrought with very problematic outcomes. Claiming God to be on the side of this or that political party is so presumptuous to me.
God is in Christ…not the Republican or Democratic party.
@Eric, we cannot discount that God judges civilizations – He’s done it before. As to whether the election is God’s judgment, I can’t answer that as He hasn’t issued a press release that I’m aware of. I’ll leave that to the individual.
I am reminded, though, of a statement Abe Lincoln once made:
“Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”
WOW- God judges America by electing a….Christian President???? How does that stack up?
I’m just gonna say it. This article is flat-out insane.
I find it puzzling that many contemporary “conservatives” correctly see that our culture is in decline in many ways (the rise in incivility, for example, and our increasing tendency to put our own convenience and the satisfaction of our own desires ahead of the well-being of the communities we belong to), but fail to see that the primary cause of this decline is, not markets per se, but unconstrained free markets. Markets by nature are expansive – unconstrained, they will invade schools, churches, families, our inner lives … . They must be kept in check by other forces, other institutions. Government, and our civic life in general, constitute one of these other forces; the decline in the trust we put in our civic institutions since the 60s is part of the reason market forces have invaded so much of our lives and caused so much cultural decline. Strange that “conservatives” insist on contributing to this decline with so much anti-government rhetoric.
I find it puzzling that many liberals correctly see that our culture is in decline in many ways but fail to see that the cause in this decline has nothing whatsoever to do with economics and everything to do with making a god of their own imagination that doesn’t care what they do. They believe that money grows on trees and that everyone can have anything they want and the bill will get paid by “the rich”. They have no clue that even if every dollar of the greedy capitalist ogres were confiscated, 100% of it, it wouldn’t even put a dent in our entitlement mentality debt pile. Capitalism is not perfect but history has proved to anyone who cares to study it, that it is the only system that creates the most properity for the most people without going into major debt. The dictatorship that we are headed to will cause much misery even to the liberals who hate capitalism. God doesn’t favor any form of government by men, whose depravity ruins any government. He is in favor of running it Himself, which He will be doing sometime soon.
I find it puzzling that many people insist that our culture is declining in the face of huge bodies of evidence to the contrary:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0612/US-violent-crime-rate-down-for-fifth-straight-year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
Yes, of course there are always going to be things we don’t like, and ways that we regress even as there are ways we progress. But by what standard, exactly, are things getting so much worse, like so many people seem to be claiming? I get that crime isn’t the only indicator, but I’d really like to see some stats about how much worse off we really are. Because objectively, though we all like to complain about how things are getting so much worse, that doesn’t really seem to be the case.
It was necessary to split this into two parts, as the total comment exceeded a bit the maximum allowed of 5000 characters. My total in this response is about 7,200.
Thus, “Part-1”
Hello Sir,
I use the name “Alice_Wondering,” as I wonder a great deal about things at times, and of late, I’ve been wondering about a number of statements you have made in this forum. But, before I begin, I want to tell you that I’ll be using a number of words that are put into capital letters. I do that simply for emphasis as italics, bolding, or underlining is not possible when communicating through this comment area. Using capital case for words is akin to yelling for me, and that is not my intent or desire. I’m not a “yeller,” actually, but in a normal format I do use differing formats to state various degrees of emphasis. I ask for your indulgence.
First, about your post of Oct 27th, you spoke in a manner which led me to believe you genuinely feel fear. I wonder about this, as you stated “Left wing activist judges and unaccountable, unelected “Human Rights” Commissioners have a long history of twisting and perverting the law to silence and intimidate gay marriage opponents,” and, “The New Mexico Court of Appeals upheld that decision and declared that gay rights trump religious freedom. This despite the fact that religious freedom is enshrined in the First Amendment to the Constitution.” You seem to believe that removing religious influence from the law is, in fact, a removal or reduction of your religious freedom. I wonder, sir, why is it that you do not accept that to continue a legal bias against gay marriage and other LGBT issues is, in itself, you and your fellow Evangelicals imposing your beliefs upon others who do not share those beliefs?
Your post of November 10th, and that of November 3rd, I wonder about. In both you really don’t say anything about how YOU think, only repeat the words of others, and in this I wonder, are you saying you agree with what these individuals say? Why simply mouth the words of others, sir? What are YOUR thoughts? Do you believe what they believe, word for word, and thus see no need to add words reflecting thoughts generated solely by you?
I wonder, at times, at how Evangelical Christian Leaders tell their church members not only WHAT to believe, but HOW to believe it, and become quite intolerant of those who do not adhere to this method. An Evangelical Church here in Spokane, the Foursquare Life Center Church, claims on their welcoming sign, “A Loving God, A Loving People,” and having attended their services many times, I’m inclined to agree for the most part. They ARE a kind, generous, and loving people, however, on some issues, such as LGBT ones, they become as intolerant as a White Supremacist is regarding Blacks and Jews.
It is said that the opposite of love is not hate, but “indifference.” A nationally famous Evangelical Pastor by the name of Mark Gungor, whose web site: “Laughyourway.com,” preaches a great deal about how to succeed in marriage, and uses his own experience of being married to the same woman for 35+ years as proof that he knows what he is talking about. He has, in fact, come to Spokane to lecture a number of times, one of which I attended. I rather like Mark, as he is quite funny and very entertaining, but one day in November two years ago while listening to his on-line radio talk show, he responded to a question about gays from a listener by responding, “I can sum up homosexuals in one word — LUST.” I was a bit shocked by this as he was equating in a blanket way about millions of people worldwide to one of the Seven Deadly Sins, and I asked him before everyone in that forum, “What of that young gay boy in Wyoming in 1998 who was beaten to death while tied to a barbed wire fence by males who admitted to being Christians?” His reply? “He should not have been gay.”
Please continue to the second posting for the conclusion of this comment.
Part-2 of “Alice_Wondering’s” comment posting:
I wonder, sir, is he not being, “indifferent?” So, I ask you as well, sir, are you “indifferent” as well?
R74 was not simply about gay marriage, sir. It was about demonstrating discrimination against whole classes of people, like transgenders, those who believe they are within themselves a member of the opposite sex, and “transition” from one to another. Either female to male or male to female. R74 forbids discrimination against them. In 36 other States across this country it is quite legal to fire someone from their job or evict them from their home if they are transgender. This was true in Washington as well until this law was passed here.
So, I wonder, sir, are you “indifferent” to them as well?
Did you know that the incidence of transgender among veterans is TWICE the incidence rate found in the general population? I refer you to: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/24/48664.htm, so that you may examine the very article I learned this from.
So, I wonder why it is that you seem so afraid of those who do not share your beliefs, almost as if you are being personally targeted. An article I recently read at the BBC, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20257611, entitled “Viewpoint: Republicans at a crossroads,” makes the observation that if Republicans continue to refuse to compromise, they run the risk of becoming less and less a force in this country. I wonder if this is the REAL reason you and others like you have not dominated this election as many of you seemed to believe you would. Your continuing refusal to become tolerant of others holding different beliefs than yourselves. I wonder why it is so that so many Evangelical feel that the word, “tolerance” is a synonym for “acceptance.” In my understanding, sir, it is not. At least, not in my view. There are many beliefs I hold myself too, yet, I make no attempt to demand others around me conform to those beliefs as Mark Gungor does and others like him.
I wonder, sir, do you feel those two words, “tolerance” and “acceptance” are, in fact, the same?
If so, please help me understand why. Why do you fear so? There has been so much violence and pain in the past shown by Christians towards those who are LGBT. I have traveled widely, sir, traveling to quite a few foreign countries and every State in this Nation except for Main and Alaska, and I can tell you that EVERY individual I have EVER met who stand against gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, and transgenders (LGBT), have been Christians. EACH and EVERY single one. Not a single Atheist, Buddhist, Wiccan, or even one Muslim, and I do happen to know Muslims DO have a “problem” with homosexuality, but it turns out they are only concerned about other Muslims, not those who are not. Evidently, to them EVERYONE who isn’t a Muslim is a heretic, so they simply do not care. They are, in fact, quite tolerant of LGBT individuals in their midst. However, Evangelical Christians are not. They, at times, even become violent against them, and quite often condone violence against anyone who is different than they, and continue to insist (as you appear to, as well) on the ability to discriminate legally against those who do not share their beliefs. So, please help me to understand, “Why do you and others like you fear so?” Have you ever been attacked personally by these people?
I wonder, sir, now that R74 has been affirmed by Washington citizens, and three other States in this country have stood and confirmed approval for LGBT equality (or “rights”), have you had “Katy bar the door?”
Thank you,
Alice
“They ARE a kind, generous, and loving people, however, on some issues, such as LGBT ones, they become as intolerant as a White Supremacist is regarding Blacks and Jews.”
This is a deeply disappointing example of the oncoming public shaming that I anticipate might be a growing outcome of the passing of Ref 74. I know many of these leaders at this church and as a fellow pastor, I resent your short bio of them, it’s horribly ungracious.
This community is eternally grateful to the decades of work for good that has taken place, is taking place and will continue to take place because of the good people there. It saddens me to see whole churches and the lives of good leaders defamed like that and I publicly choose to stand with them in spite of there public position on the referendum was different than mine.
I can’t speak to Joe’s reasons behind posting this type of stuff, personally, I loathe it…but the demonizing of people’s whole lives because of certain views or associations is terrible.
If you read the public discourse out there, like: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/nov/11/law-puts-churches-on-varied-paths/
you see that even the progressives are dancing around words and policies about how to respond, what they will do or wont do about implementing Ref 74. I was kind of shocked to see wording like this coming from pro-gay institutions: ““We may not be ready to call what they’re doing a marriage, but this is confusing – and it’s confusing to me,” Wells said.
It shows me that many people pushed the Trojan horse through the city gates without much clarity on just how we would deal with what was inside the policy. So, a little bit of grace is needed for all as they find out how to react or respond to all this new social policy.
I meant Joe’s article that we are commenting on here, not Joe W.
“This is a deeply disappointing example of the oncoming public shaming that I anticipate might be a growing outcome of the passing of Ref 74. I know many of these leaders at this church and as a fellow pastor, I resent your short bio of them, it’s horribly ungracious.”
You can’t seriously believe that evangelicals and fundamentalists are *just now* starting to receive shame in our culture, and that it really has anything to do with whether Ref74 passed or not.
@Alice, I’m simply writing what going on out there – the who, what, where, why, etc. I leave it to you to form your own opinion as much as I can. Yeah, I have an opinion, but these are the kinds of things that get very little to no exposure. We can’t have a discussion when one side is excluded.
As for “tolerance,” let me say that my 20+ years of experience as an activist/candidate/writer, etc. has taught me that those who scream “tolerance” the loudest are often the least tolerant people out there.
@Eric, the reason I post this “type of stuff” is simple – this is what’s going on out there, and it shouldn’t be swept under the rug or ignored because it makes some people uncomfortable. Trust me, there are many, many more things going on out there I could write about here, but haven’t. And some of them would make your hair stand on end.
@sam
I think my reponse in defense of my friends stands.
Obviously I agree that there is plenty out there to ‘shame’ when it comes to the issue. I would hope such matters would be addressed to the people who perpetrated the hate. If someone spends three sermons building a very good understanding for how they got to their position and then lovingly shares it, I think one should handle them in the same way they handled the issue. I would hope to give such respect to those I disagree with.
I know right now, you are on the side of feeling it’s right to kick them in the groin for their stupid positions but I simply don’t want to be treated that way, so I try not to be that way. The Ref wouldn’t of passed without people like me who voted for it but and I knew that even though I voted for it, I would come in the crossfire because I don’t support it for the ‘right’ reasons according to most supporters.
@joe I think the challenge here will be in understanding that this isn’t really a newfeed of ‘stuff’ out there, but a blog intended for dialouge and also debate. If folks just pass along highlights of info than treating posts as “stuff” will probably result and a more inhumne treatment I might add. I read blogs for more than ‘hot button’ info that I can react too, I read to engage the issues, understand better and have my own positions challenged for growth. It’s iron sharpening iron and I do beleive that there is plenty to gain from our friends and enemies.
@Eric, “enemies”? Interesting choice of words. I’ve never really considered political opponents as “enemies,” but things seem to have devolved to that, haven’t they?
As for “feelings,” I generally try to avoid letting those get in the way of my writing. I write, first, to inform, but my opinion often manages to come out in what I write. Sometimes, it’s subtle, sometimes not. If my “feelings” get in the way of the facts in a case, then the truth gets diminished, I think. I have opinions about things, but I think we need to discuss issues from a standpoint of fact, not feelings. Just my humble opinion.
Comes from years of debate, and in debate, facts – not feelings – win the day.
Agree about iron sharpening iron BTW. And you have to admit, the stuff I’ve posted has caused quite a bit of debate, wouldn’t you say?
“Feelings” …???
@Mr. Joe Newby; are those individuals you wrote of the ONLY viewpoints of Evangelicals, sir? They seemed to be angry, fearful, and advocate intolerance. I, for one, AM interested in your opinion. As to “exposure,” I am uncertain what you mean by that. Do you actually mean “influence” with the other Evangelicals? Would they would ignore you if you voiced a challenge to their ideas? Gandhi said that “Intolerance Betrays Want Of Faith In One’s Cause.” If, as an Evangelical, would you be shunned by your peers if you made a case for tolerance? They being “intolerant” of you? Do THEY equate “tolerance” with “acceptance?” As for those who “scream tolerance,” yet, are in fact “intolerant,” is this not simply disingenuous conduct by them? Whenever I am confronted by those who will not who will not brook differing viewpoints, I immediately suspect hidden motives, such as an concern of such people in advancing their own self-interest in some way, usually in regards to the attainment of wealth. Is it conceivable that the Evangelicals who wish to impose their beliefs upon, not just everyone else, but in particular other Evangelicals are, in fact, advancing THEIR own personal significance that would directly be of benefit to them? God is a very Big Guy, in my view, and it seems at times to me very much that Evangelicals claim a kind of “ownership” of Him. I wonder, sir, is not such an attitude a kind of hubris?
What do you think? And, please, I AM very much interested in YOUR opinion.
Alice
I absolutely agree with the writer who said 9/11 was a judgment from God. Read the book by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn called “The Harbinger”. 9/11 is in direct parallel to a judgment from God upon Israel told about in the Old Testament. I voted for and supported Bush but his error was in asking Israel to give land away to the Palestinians. This land was given to Israel by God and He commands in the book of Joel that woe be to anyone who tries to “part the land”. By the same token Obama needs to be very careful in how he relates to Israel.
I tend to lean into the interpretation of OT passages by Jesus:
The Scriptures declare, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations,’ but you have turned it into a den of thieves.” -Jesus (Mark 11:17)
Matt 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”
Pepper, I totally agree. Romans 9-11 spells out in detail God’s future plans for Israel. If He can’t keep His unconditional promises to Israel then He can’t keep them to us either. But thanks be to God that He CAN! And He will to us and to Israel. I believe the OT and NT all need to be interpreted together and in harmony with each other. Amillenialism can’t be reconciled with the rest of Scripture unless using allegory which never comes to the right conclusions. Rom 11 especially goes into detail to reveal that only a remnant of Israel will be saved, by grace through faith, just like the rest of us, but God will be dealing with them again. We act and think arrogantly if we relegate God relationship to Israel as past and gone.
Christ is the second Adam, the obedient son, the one greater than Moses, the new Joshua, the new land in which we are called to dwell and live. All the promises are yes and amen…in Him. That is the message of the OT as revealed by the apostles and prophets in the NT. Jesus himself said all scripture spoke of Him. The church, those who place thier faith in Christ and are joined into Him by His Spirit and become the “Israel of God”.
Galatians 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.”
So much bloodshed based on nationalism…in Christ, there is neight jew nor gentile. Thank God, the old creation is past and the new creation has dawned.
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