Mars Hill is welcome in Spokane as far as I’m concerned but I hope they come humbly and in a posture to listen, serve and engage with concerned or misinformed people.
Nothing is really knew under the sun the Apostle John warned of certain religious types who take it upon themselves to be the gatekeepers of the welcomed and the unwelcome.
3 John 1:9-10 says: “Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.”
Gossip, slander and outright hate has been spewed all over their name by people unwilling to hear their case because they have been determined guilty by some.
I think there needs to be a fair table set and they need to be welcomed and then hopefully dialogue and healthy debate could take place.
I would add that I think there’s plenty to tango about that exists in the secondary matters or as Driscoll would put it “open palm” category.
Without a doubt Mark Driscoll finds a lot of trouble for himself..
The problem I see is that the world and his critics focus on 2 or 3 percent of his message where he misspoke or went to far at the expense of the 97 or 98 percent of his teaching which tends to be very powerful Christ Centered preaching.
I suspect that most of his critics have listened to few of his sermons. They just want to take him down because they have the ammo. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
I agree most people rage against his comments and positions on gays, stay at home dads, women leaders and herbal tea. Hardly Westboro Baptist.
His bravado is over the top sometimes and he kinda belittles positions he doesn’t agree with with a measure of mocking but again that’s not evil just irritating at times.
He’s managed to do good work on the NW. Not an easy endeavor. Gods at work.
I wish someone was coming into the community that might have a more open posture regarding women in leadership and a more egalitarian position on marriage.
Our community has many needs and restricting people based on gender limits our ability to think deeply and openly about all possibilities to help our community.
I don’t see him being unwelcome; I just see missed opportunities and possibly people encountering a Christian message for the first time due to the curiosity factor that will be missing what I consider key pieces or attitudes.
However it’s up to those of here to be open and to share our own beliefs and the love of Christ in creative and engaging ways. Trashing others is fairly pointless and toxic.
Nancy,
I’ve got a fairly long list of churches where that position is held and practiced. When new churches come, it forces everyone to wake up a little and examine themselves and I think their message. Do we truly feel our churches and our gospel are worth sharing? What edges have grown dull, what embers allowed to cool, what battles left for others etc. new churches can revive older churches by splashing a little cold water in their sleepy eyes. We grow to comfortable while people’s lives are in need of truth. We can let the purposes of god for his city lie unreached by lethargy, complacency and sin. Christianity is a revival movement that was born within a faith community that had grown dead, cold and distracted. The Father always welcomes his closest to home as he is looking for the prodigal too.
Hey, Marc is a marketing genius, His comments that are controversial even if they are only 2 to 3% as Josh says, but I think it is more like 40% or 50% are design to get a rise out of people and then sell books and generate income for the Driscoll household. Much like Miley Cyrus or Lady Gaga of the the reform movement, he is the say anything to be outrageous type. Twerking for fun and profit. He knows how to package and sell his stuff. (ever wonder why he say outrageous and does outrageous things right as one of his new books comes out.) I just can take him seriously. Also, Josh is this a good biblical teaching: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christianpiatt/2013/04/mark-driscolls-oral-fixation/
“She [the wife] says, “I’ve never performed oral sex on my husband. I’ve refused to.” I said, “You need to go home and tell your husband that you’ve met Jesus and you’ve been studying the Bible, and that you’re convicted of a terrible sin in your life. And then you need to drop his trousers, and you need to serve your husband. And when he asks why, say, ‘Because I’m a repentant woman. God has changed my heart and I’m supposed to be a biblical wife.’” She says, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. First Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness.” [Laughter from audience] How many men would agree, that is a deed of kindness. He doesn’t want tracts. Those won’t do anything. What we’re talking about here could really help.”
When I read this, I feel I am in the presence of someone who acts more like PT Barnum than a follower of Jesus. So he is bringing his 3 ring sideshow to Spokane. Hey, it is a free county. He will continue to rake in the big bucks and laughing all the way to the bank. For me, while I have been a sucker before, this sucker will be going to his own home Church, Milwood Pres to hear the Gospel.
Ernesto that’s a heavy measure of judgment, not one I’d wish measured out on me.
I am not certain what you mean by judgement. His pattern is very clear. A new book comes out and he does and says controversial things. His stunt at the Strange Fire conference fits the pattern to a Capital T. A twitter blast, followed by a stunt and follow up post on his blog. He has a new book come out and he posts that pacifists are pansies. Suddenly, everyone is talking about him. Does he believe the stuff, who knows, but the fact it comes at a book promotion? Accident, don’t bet on it. He is too media savvy for that.
He beams in his sermons and builds a large network that feed back to his coffers. He makes strong comments, then backs down. The telling sign is that before he came out with his newest book, I made a comment to a friend that he will do or say something outrageous and the media would eat it up. I will again be so bold and say with the release of his next book he will say or do something outrageous and the media will chime in and he will sell lots of stuff. This is his schtick and follows a pattern that PT Barnum created. Good for him, he found a way to make a good living in America. Does that mean I have to treat him as a serious Christian thinker. No. But there is no judgement in recognizing a pattern.
I don’t get the author making money angst. Why is it wrong to write a book, promote it and if people choose to buy it be paid? Is that a sin? He doesn’t control who buys his books. Your pastor writes books and sell his photographs, should I put him in the same category? I don’t think so but why is that minister given a pass?
I think it’s fine critiquing his style, antics, methodology or his various controversial positions but painting him out as a thieving wolf is judgmental to me.
I don’t have any knowledge that such accusations are true about a fellow Christian minister. I disagree with some of his message and a some of his methods but I’m wary of accusing the brother.
Eric,
I have no problem with author selling a lot of books. I am writing one myself and hope to join their ranks. I said he uses techniques pioneered by PT Barnum outlined in Humbugs of the World to sell his books. I don’t think this judgmental or calling him a thieving wolf, rather it is just what he does. Mark Driscoll is a marketing master. While he may have not read PT Barnum or those marketing geniuses that came after him like Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays, he certainly knows how to use those showman skills and marketing tools well. Using these tools, though, does bring up the question of sincerity. Does Mark say and do these things because he believes them or is he saying and do them because they will sell his books? Many bestselling authors before and since don’t use these marketing tools to sell their wares, Mark clearly does. Ann Voskamp even disavows controversy in promoting her bestselling books.
So is Mark being controversial to sell or just being authentic? I can’t say for sure, but it is interesting that his most controversial actions and words come right as a new book arrives. Because of this, even when I read his post like the pacifists are pansies, I can’t take him seriously. I think he is just trying to get a rise out of people. He knows how to attract attention and does so as a media savvy marketing genius. It is clear that Mark courts controversy. He knows that it fills seats at his conferences and sells books.
Yet, knowing these tools, I can see them as he uses them and it makes me take him in the same way as pop stars using the same tools to sell their music. So the question for me as an author, do I uses the tool of being controversial just sell my books or do I promote my book on the quality of its content? Clearly, the tools Mark uses do work to make money, I can’tconscience use them and still be authentic to my faith. Other might, but I can’t. The last question, do these tools honor God? They work to sell, but do they further the nine fruit of the Spirit? This is the crux for Christians. Saying and doing outrageous things does help in selling, but does it help in proclaiming the Gospel? I think as he opens his ministry in Spokane, he loves, absolutely loves the controversy about his coming. It will fill the pews and fill Mars Hill’s coffers. Will it fill the book of life, only Jesus knows.
Fantastic response Ernesto. I appreciate that analysis. Good stuff. Hats off.